Tarry for the Nonce

January 25, 2006

A Foxy Move

Filed under: News — lmwalker @ 1:58 pm

If one didn’t know better, one might conclude that Mexico was at odds with the United States immigration policy:

A Mexican government agency is to issue some 70,000 maps marking main roads and water tanks for people wanting to cross illegally into the US.

The National Human Rights Commission says the maps will be aimed at cutting the death toll among migrants . . .

Launching the project in Mexico City, officials from Mexico’s Human Rights Commission (HRC) flatly denied they were trying to encourage greater migration.

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19 Comments

  1. Reminds me of the plan to decrease unwanted babies and stds by passing out condoms. Rather than helping the situation, it appears that the effect this has had on our culture is increased sexual promiscuity and further desentization towards taking responsibility for pregnancy.

    Comment by Brian — January 25, 2006 @ 5:11 pm

  2. This is tough. On on hand, I resent the burden that’s placed on hospitals and public schools by illegals. On the other hand, the economy would collapse without them.

    I don’t see how people that call themselves “pro life” would be against giving the these people the barest of aid so that they can survive rather die a horrible death. So are you so strongly against immigration that you’d rather they perish than get into this country?

    Believe me, there are still plenty of dangers to discourage people from entering this country.

    Comment by Howard — January 25, 2006 @ 7:33 pm

  3. You being one of them Mr. R

    Comment by Alistair A, — January 26, 2006 @ 10:51 am

  4. So are you so strongly against immigration that you’d rather they perish than get into this country?

    I can’t say I feel too terribly strongly on the subject, but I do think it’s indicative of the respect Mexico has for the laws of the United States.

    Y’know, when I first heard about the border fence, I thought it was a silly idea, but I didn’t realize that people were dying in border runs. Now I think maybe the fence isn’t such a far-out notion, if only to protect illegal immigrants from their own folly.

    Comment by laura — January 26, 2006 @ 11:58 am

  5. I can’t say I feel too terribly strongly on the subject, but I do think it’s indicative of the respect Mexico has for the laws of the United States.

    I think Mexico is just doing what it can to safeguard its citizens.

    You being one of them Mr. R

    Don’t you have to go picket a public school for teaching evolution?

    Comment by Howard R — January 26, 2006 @ 12:59 pm

  6. I definetely would prefer people to live over people dying horrible deaths. That is why I am so against abortion! Nobody should have their heads crushed or their body torn apart, or any other form of mutilation and annihiliation done to them — especially in what should be a safe place — their mother’s womb!

    I see parrallels between Mexico’s plan and the plan to pass out condoms. Just because I see parrallels does not mean I am so against illegal immigration. I think illegal immigration is a social justice issue that needs to be properly addressed, and I do not think Mexico (or the United States) has addressed it properly. This is something that needs better answers than maps, just like people need better answers for their sexuality than condoms.

    Comment by Brian — January 26, 2006 @ 7:15 pm

  7. Well, Mexico has an incentive. According to a related story [ok, it was the exact same story] on Fox News, the amount of money illegals sends home each year is approx. $20B dollars. It is the second largest industry in Mexico, next to oil exports. So the Mexican government has an incentive to get people to cross over successfully to US soil.

    I find it ironic that the same folks who bitch about how bad the economy is and how all our jobs are going overseas also bitch [and moan] about our attempts to prevent foreigners from illegally entering the US and taking jobs.

    Personally, I think we should just move to the next step and merge w/ Mexico and Canada. Then the only problem would be if we consider Canada and Mexico to be one state, or if we should break them up into multiple states. Of course, this does kind of go against my antifederalist stance.

    Comment by Andrew P. — January 27, 2006 @ 3:20 am

  8. Don’t you have to go picket a public school for teaching evolution?

    Picket? I have a bit more pride than that. you may find them good times, but I find other ways to stop irrational thinking

    Comment by Alistair A. — January 27, 2006 @ 8:17 am

  9. illegally entering the US and taking jobs.

    I don’t really think Mexican immigrants are taking jobs that Americans are clamoring for. When was the last time you went into a fast-food restaurant that wasn’t begging for people to apply?

    These are the low-level, “pull-a-lever, get-a-banana” jobs that Americans as a whole just don’t want to do.

    There’s no question that Mexico has powerful incentives to get people into The U.S. But I guess the question is if giving people elemental information to increase their chances of surviving a desert trip is encouraging add’l immigration?

    Comment by Howard — January 27, 2006 @ 9:23 am

  10. Don’t you have to go picket a public school for teaching evolution?

    Holy smokes, Howard, are you seriously that freaking stupid?

    These are the low-level, “pull-a-lever, get-a-banana” jobs that Americans as a whole just don’t want to do.

    Oh, well, ok, yes, apparently you are.

    Who are these “Americans as a whole,” and how did they get to be so lazy and picky about what jobs they’ll take? Why is it that we have all these welfare programs and the whining from the anti-Bush crowd about a “jobless recovery” just stopped not too long ago, and yet Americans just aren’t willing to stoop to working in fast-food chains? How is it that Americans are perfectly willing to pick up trash, make minimum wage cold-calling people on the phone, or shovel manure on the family farm — but when it comes to mowing the lawn, hey man, screw that, we just don’t want to do it!

    The reality, of course, is that Americans would be perfectly willing to take those jobs. Just not at the prevailing wage. And the reason the prevailing wage is low is that illegal immigrants are willing to take it. They are willing to accept worse living conditions in the U.S., often living ten to a room; and they send money back home to Mexico, where the little money they earn goes much further, not least because of the large number of local people who are willing to accept even worse living conditions.

    Were we to close off immigration, jobs would not go unfilled. They’d just have to be better paid, and there’d be fewer of them, and our food and many other things would be more expensive, since we couldn’t exploit the differences in standards of living between the U.S. and Mexico. (Very similar effects would occur if we restricted trade with China or outsourcing of work to India — both of which have put very willing and able people out of work.) In some ways, our economy would look a lot like those of continental Europe.

    I don’t have an answer on what to do about illegal immigration, and could make a pretty good case for stopping it, legalizing it, or leaving things status-quo. None of which would depend on the imbecilic assertion that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans “just don’t want.”

    Comment by Toly — January 29, 2006 @ 1:00 am

  11. But I guess the question is if giving people elemental information to increase their chances of surviving a desert trip is encouraging add’l immigration?

    Well, yes, actually it is. The deserts are supposed to be a natural barrier to people getting into the U.S. Putting out information on how to cross them “safely” not only undermines the deterrent, but also works as an endorsement of the act. And I believe there is a word for when a government encourages and instructs its citizens to enter another country’s land: invasion.

    Now, we don’t have to start a war over this or anything. Still, perhaps our own government could respond in kind. One suggestion I’ve seen elesewhere: print a brochure called Check Fraud: Your Guide to “Free” Stuff in Mexico. For the less well-heeled crowd, we could have The HHS Guide to Stiffing Your Tijuana Hooker, not to mention a DEA publication of suggested bribe amounts for Mexican jailers, just in case you get caught with a dimebag of weed on the other side of the border — not that the U.S. government encourages such things, mind you! Or just skip the subtle ironies, and start distributing instructional leaflets to Guatemalans for crossing the southern Mexican border.

    Comment by Toly — January 29, 2006 @ 1:17 am

  12. Don’t you have to go picket a public school for teaching evolution?

    Holy smokes, Howard, are you seriously that freaking stupid?

    I’m sorry. Should I have said “picket someplace where they’re trying to recruit our children into the gay lifestyle”?

    The reality, of course, is that Americans would be perfectly willing to take those jobs. Just not at the prevailing wage.

    Where did you get this little factoid? May I gently assume that you have never owned a business where you have had to hire employees? My wife and I have a business with five employees (not counting ourselves). Trust me when I say that I think I have a bit more insight into economic realities (at least in the Chicago suburbs) than you do.

    Example: I had an opening for a dental assistant. We have medical, dental, 401K, profit sharing, 2 weeks vacation from the get-go, 3 day weekends every week, heck we’ll even pay for your health club membership. Starting wages were $10.50/hr to start (assuming no experience) with raises to $20/hr likely within the next 4-5 years. Not a fortune but better than most jobs for people with just a H.S. degree. The only people we had apply were immigrant dentists who can’t practice here.

    If we cut off immigration, the jobs would not magically pay more. Demand for the type of goods and services largely produced on the backs of immigrants isn’t inelastic. There comes a labor cost at which the business model just isn’t viable.

    Cutting off immigration isn’t going to solve our economic issues any more than raising tariffs on Chinese goods would stop manufacturing job losses. Illegal immigration as much an economic crutch for this country as is cheap gasoline.

    Tory, these people leave their families for months or years at a time, make themselves subject to bandits and con men when they can’t go the police, and other hardships I can’t even imagine. I don’t think that knowing where water and (?) first aid stations are (assuming they can read a map of desert; without roads, I’d be hard pressed to) will make a great deal of difference if the former is agreeable.

    Comment by Howard — January 29, 2006 @ 5:28 pm

  13. I’m sorry. Should I have said “picket someplace where they’re trying to recruit our children into the gay lifestyle”?

    Why would I go to a gay picket? That just sounds dirty. just what kind of sick pleasesure would you get out of that? nevermind I don’t want to know…

    Mr. R, I think you ought to do something about your computer, it would seem that it comes on here by itself and types in gibberish. I know that no normal human being could type such tripe and pathetic excuses just to get people to notice them.
    You wouldn’t do that Mr. R! You’re too big a man to do such a thing!
    (If your little thing you like to call a brain-weather it be at the top or bottom-can’t catch on, everything above was sarcasm.)
    I wonder how many people actually still pay and attention to anything you post, let alone bother reading it. Aside from myself, that is. And you must notice by now that I give nothing to any of your silly rantings. I only read to find ways to make your time here enjoyable, you did say you like being insulted. That and the fact that your level of stupidity never ceases to amaze me, how anyone could think themselves rational with your kind of thinking is beyond logic and human reasoning. You’re a disgrace to whatever party you belong to, I’m suprised they have not asked you to stop claiming to be one of them yet.
    Now back to your day job, you self-righteous clump of cells.

    Comment by Alistair A. — January 29, 2006 @ 6:23 pm

  14. Clearly, simplistic thinking had great appeal to over half the voters in the last presidential election. Thus it would seem you have plenty of company.

    BTW, are there any companies left that haven’t offended conservatives in one way or another? Haliburton aside, of course.

    Comment by Howard — January 29, 2006 @ 7:28 pm

  15. May I gently assume that you have never owned a business where you have had to hire employees? My wife and I have a business with five employees (not counting ourselves). Trust me when I say that I think I have a bit more insight into economic realities (at least in the Chicago suburbs) than you do.

    You may gently assume whatever you like, Howard, but considering the level and quality of argument you have displayed so far, I would submit that reality is something with which you have a very passing familiarity.

    Example: I had an opening for a dental assistant. We have medical, dental, 401K, profit sharing… The only people we had apply were immigrant dentists who can’t practice here.

    Amazing! And this anecdote proves… what? My dentist (located in the suburbs) has a similarly sized office, with around the same number of dental assistants — all (as far as I can tell) American-born. Perhaps he pays more? Offers better working conditions? I have no idea. Come to think of it, I’ve gone to a good number of dentists, orthodontists, and even one oral surgery — and all were quite adequately staffed with non-immigrant assistants. So if you are under some impression that “Americans don’t want jobs as dental assistants,” well, please see what I said above about your connection to reality.

    And seriously: are you under the impression that Americans are just totally unwilling to mow lawns? Ever?

    I understand that closing immigration wouldn’t magically raise wages. (Well, actually, it would raise wages for non-skilled jobs, by severely reducing the supply of workers. It’s just that the quantity of jobs offered would drop, quite dramatically, precisely because demand for unskilled services is not inelastic. Prices of food would go up a lot, for example, as picking, stocking, and preparing it would get much more expensive. As is often the case, Howard, it’s not that I think you’re wrong — it’s that your argument sucks like a funnel cloud.)

    Illegal immigrants are not taking “jobs that Americans don’t want.” They are, in fact, taking jobs that Americans do want, but at wages that Americans don’t want. (This is, after all, their competitive advantage.) And that has pretty serious and far-reaching economic — not to mention ethical! — implications for the country.

    hese people leave their families for months or years at a time, make themselves subject to bandits and con men when they can’t go the police, and other hardships I can’t even imagine. I don’t think that knowing where water and (?) first aid stations are (assuming they can read a map of desert; without roads, I’d be hard pressed to) will make a great deal of difference if the former is agreeable.

    Knowing that water and first-aid stations exist would certainly encourage crossing. Most sane people would hesitate to cross the desert on foot. Giving them maps with the authority and sanction of the government would absolutely give the impression that the journey is possible, even adviseable. (Never mind that it directly facilitates breaking U.S. law and invading American territory.) If the Mexican government wants to keep its citizens from dying in the desert, it should prevent them from taking the journey in the first place — as it is obligated to do.

    …simplistic thinking…

    Uh-huh. This, from the man insisting that Americans are just too prissy to mow our own lawns, and that people with religious convictions should automatically have their viewpoints dismissed. Anyone here seen a pot and a kettle?

    Comment by Toly — January 29, 2006 @ 8:20 pm

  16. The “jobless recovery” complaint is that the jobs being created are low-paying jobs lacking benefits. “Americans” didn’t seem to want this job. Many of the other offices I chat with on Dentaltown.com complain of the same thing (reasonably paying jobs with benefits are going begging). Would I have doubled the pay to attract someone if I had to? No, the job doesn’t add that much value to the practice.

    Just how much do you think would need to be paid to a U.S. citizen to cut grass when it’s 90 degrees out? Or wash dishes? Or harvest fruits and vegetables? Take a look at New Orleans. IIRC, despite the high wages, the jobs are being filled by immigrants. Pay is only a part of the issue, IMHO.

    Again, I’m no fan of the healthcare resources illegals consume, the auto insurance costs they raise, the cost to educate their children, and so forth.

    But I also believe that crossing into the U.S. entails enough of a personal sacrifice and a placing of oneself into harm’s way, all in context of desperation, that making it marginally less hazardous won’t make much of a difference in the numbers crossing.

    Simplistic is “Well it so because god says it’s so” or putting villains behind the world’s ills.

    Please excuse me as it’s well past my bedtime.

    Comment by Howard — January 29, 2006 @ 9:07 pm

  17. But I also believe that crossing into the U.S. entails enough of a personal sacrifice and a placing of oneself into harm’s way, all in context of desperation, that making it marginally less hazardous won’t make much of a difference in the numbers crossing.

    How many illegals do you know personally?

    As a matter of fact, I know quite a number and the reason they make the trip is not out of desparation but to take advantage of the higher wages they can make here in the US. Some of them own nice homes in the towns from which they come (by the standards of their own towns) and have nice little families back home. Some of the ability to do so coming from the one or two family members who come to the US. Some even travel back & forth seasonally – from VA via TX.

    Not all are Mexican, although predominantly they are. Many are from countries of Central America.

    As far as Americans not wanting the jobs — this is also not true. Historically, the lowest-paying jobs were taken by legal immigrants (the Irish, the Chinese) and, in later years, teenagers trying to earn money while getting through high school/college. The same people are willing to take those jobs.

    Among the things that propel legal immigrants and students (those students who actually have a work ethic and desire to pay their own way in life… few and far between these days, most expecting college to be gratis) out of those jobs is entrance to college or high-paying opportunities for which they are qualified as they gain experience.

    If Mexicans and others so greatly desire to take advantage of the vibrant economic life of the US should come here legally. If they are willing to take ‘their lives in their hands’ and make their way across the desert, then they will live or die with the consequences of the choices they make. If the Mexican government is aiding them in gaining illegal entrance to this country, as Toly points out, they are aiding an invasion (one which is highly lucrative for Mexico) of our nation and the invaders (illegals) should be held accountable – ie: arrested and thrown into prisons here in the US without hope of returning home.

    Nothing speaks obedience like a head on a pike.

    Comment by auntlori — January 30, 2006 @ 7:25 am

  18. I guess I was extrapolating from my own POV. I assumed that to leave one’s family and take the risk of travel to another country one had to be in desperate straights. I stand corrected.

    Comment by Howard R — January 30, 2006 @ 11:56 am

  19. Just how much do you think would need to be paid to a U.S. citizen to cut grass when it’s 90 degrees out? Or wash dishes? Or harvest fruits and vegetables?

    Funny, I do all of that-all the time-and I don’t get a cent.

    Anyone here seen a pot and a kettle?

    HOOT!

    Comment by Alistair A. — January 30, 2006 @ 1:03 pm


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